Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

[redwein]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

I am certainly not worked up about it....are you? I am sorry if my "get a grip" comment offended you as it wasn't meant to.

That probably was what got me a bit worked up. Perhaps I read too much into that.

The multi room, we can agree to disagree on that one. I like the idea of using the XL / XL2 as a "hub".

Are you saying you "prefer" to have a hub based solution for this? What benefits would you get over an equal peer solution? I would think that being able to rent/buy a movie on any box and be able to watch it on any other box (like the Tivo solution) would be better than having to designate a single box as a hub and have to treat that box or the process of renting/buying movies differently. Having a special hub box seems to add unnecessary complication and I don't really see any benefit.

While it is true that the Vudu XL / XL2 boxes are aimed at custom, many of these companies will sell it over-the-counter AND many have showrooms or specialty stores. Vudu doesn't have any rules restricting OTC sales with the higher end models, but does have rules about mail-order and Internet sales.

That seems like a hassle to me, the customer. I don't want to have to seek out a vendor for the box. I would be much more likely to consider an upgrade if I could order it from Vudu online, or buy it from Best Buy (either in one of their stores or online). As a result, I won't consider upgrading until there are sufficient hardware differences to drive me down that path, though I will still feel like I shouldn't need to do that.

[NA9D]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

The facts of the matter are that Vudu has already shown a propensity to enact an "XL Only" marketing decision for products base solely on the fact that it is something they need to differentiate the XL from the normal product. Why? Because for the difference there used to be in price, the XL wasn't worth the extra money. The new pricing structure has changed the game somewhat.

The fact that Vudu publicly beta tested with network remote control on BX100 boxes and then nearly a year later pulled that capability from the BX100 boxes simply because they decided it was an "XL only" feature ticked a lot of people off. Secondly, we were told early on that we couldn't have HD over component because of licensing issues from the studios (that could probably be found here somewhere if it wasn't deleted). Then suddenly, the XL boxes got HD over component.

Room to room viewing has been something that since Tom came along with his 5 boxes in about the second week of business that we have all wanted and asked for multiple times. Given the way the product has been developed and how the early adopters who made the company into what it is, it would be like a slap in the face (IMHO) to someone like Tom to have the arbitrary decision made to have it as an XL only feature.

I have no problems with differentiation between platforms where a true higher end platform could handle things like HDMI 1.3a, deep color and higher quality sound and gigabit ethernet. Now, with those add-ons, I can see a completely different feature set supported because that box has capabilities the standard box doesn't have. This is likely the case with Tivo boxes. The Series 3/HD boxes have inherent capabilities the Series 2 does not have.

Product differentiation should be made in hardware AND software - not just software.

And even at $499, I don't know if I'd buy an XL because I don't want to pay some schmuck who probably knows less about electronics than I do to install it!

[htheater]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

I believe I'm entitled to feel however I want about the situation (remembering it's hypothetical of course).

You are and I never indicated that you weren't.

The main difference between Vudu and Tivo, as I see it, is that the ability to continually add new features was something that was pushed early on with Vudu.

Point taken.

There are a list of features that us early adopters have been talking about and wishing for since the beginning. External storage and multi-room viewing are 2 of them. I don't believe that Tivo used the upgradable nature of the box as as much of a selling point as Vudu did. I honestly think that if those 2 features wound up to be XL only features, then I wouldn't be the only one who was unhappy with that.

I agree with you on the storage and stated so since the basic box has this as a bigger issue, especially when HDX is involved.

The multi room, we can agree to disagree on that one. I like the idea of using the XL / XL2 as a "hub".

One other difference between the Vudu/Tivo situation is that I could just go out and buy a series 3 if I wanted to. I didn't need to go to a custom installer to get one. It is my understanding that I can't just buy an XL (at least not on their website or at blockbuster). Why should I have to pay a custom installer to buy a box that I just want to plunk down where my old one is. I'm sure there are features which are really more targetted to custom installation and that appeared to be Vudu's position for having different sets of features. In my opinion, multi-room viewing has nothing to do with custom installation and, as was pointed out by others, seems like something that is more useful when you aren't dealing with the custom installation (e.g. home theater) scenario.

Different marketing strategies and economic times. TiVo was originally supported by the custom market too. As it became a commodity and the price dropped, many stopped selling it. The only thing that kept it alive in the custom market was DirecTiVo and they blew that one. Luckily, DirecTV's DVR sucked as compared to TiVo and Dish Network's and is going away and back to TiVo. Even then, I doubt that the custom market will embrace it if it has no margin and is sold everywhere.

The same will happen to Vudu if they achieve similar market penetration and don't differentiate their models. Their recent drop in dealer margins last month and the newly announced price drops will cause some dealers to bail now as their is not enough money in it to justify the hassels.

While it is true that the Vudu XL / XL2 boxes are aimed at custom, many of these companies will sell it over-the-counter AND many have showrooms or specialty stores. Vudu doesn't have any rules restricting OTC sales with the higher end models, but does have rules about mail-order and Internet sales.

Anyway, since we are only dealing with rumours here, I don't think it makes too much sense to get all worked up over it.

I am certainly not worked up about it....are you? I am sorry if my "get a grip" comment offended you as it wasn't meant to.

[redwein]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

....and, we are ALL assuming that there are no hardware differences other than the hard drive size. I haven't seen anyone from Vudu state if this is true or not.

Again, I don't see the problem. Multi room wasn't promised to you to entice you to purchase a Vudu. In fact, it MAY be supported on all models and it MAY not come out at all, but, if it does I wouldn't blame Vudu in offering upgraded features for the higher-end boxes only as they need to differentiate the boxes.

Just curious as to why you feel that TiVo hasn't failed the Series 2 owners by not offering them the Series 3 features other than HD? Seems to be the same thing you accuse Vudu of doing. Maybe I am missing something.

I believe I'm entitled to feel however I want about the situation (remembering it's hypothetical of course). My understanding is that the only HW difference between the 2 boxes is the HD. As I already said, if there are other differences that preclude that (highly unlikely IMO), then that would just be the way it is and I already said I would accept it. Note that I'm not unhappy that my box doesn't have the HD space that the XL does.

The main difference between Vudu and Tivo, as I see it, is that the ability to continually add new features was something that was pushed early on with Vudu. There are a list of features that us early adopters have been talking about and wishing for since the beginning. External storage and multi-room viewing are 2 of them. I don't believe that Tivo used the upgradable nature of the box as as much of a selling point as Vudu did. I honestly think that if those 2 features wound up to be XL only features, then I wouldn't be the only one who was unhappy with that.

One other difference between the Vudu/Tivo situation is that I could just go out and buy a series 3 if I wanted to. I didn't need to go to a custom installer to get one. It is my understanding that I can't just buy an XL (at least not on their website or at blockbuster). Why should I have to pay a custom installer to buy a box that I just want to plunk down where my old one is. I'm sure there are features which are really more targetted to custom installation and that appeared to be Vudu's position for having different sets of features. In my opinion, multi-room viewing has nothing to do with custom installation and, as was pointed out by others, seems like something that is more useful when you aren't dealing with the custom installation (e.g. home theater) scenario.

Anyway, since we are only dealing with rumours here, I don't think it makes too much sense to get all worked up over it.

[htheater]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

By the way, if the feature couldn't be provided on the original boxes due to hardware limitations I would completely understand and possibly consider upgrading to get the latest and greatest if thats what it took (e.g. I don't expect the original Tivos to have series 3 or HD capabilities). I won't, however, buy 5 new boxes because of a policy decision.

....and, we are ALL assuming that there are no hardware differences other than the hard drive size. I haven't seen anyone from Vudu state if this is true or not.

Again, I don't see the problem. Multi room wasn't promised to you to entice you to purchase a Vudu. In fact, it MAY be supported on all models and it MAY not come out at all, but, if it does I wouldn't blame Vudu in offering upgraded features for the higher-end boxes only as they need to differentiate the boxes.

Just curious as to why you feel that TiVo hasn't failed the Series 2 owners by not offering them the Series 3 features other than HD? Seems to be the same thing you accuse Vudu of doing. Maybe I am missing something.

[redwein]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

Get a grip! Nobody is saying that they won't keep improving ALL boxes with software/firmware upgrades. New OS and Vudu Labs are perfect examples that it is not a "dead end" box.

I was speaking specifically about the stated rumour that the multi-room viewing would be targetted for the XL box only. My comments make perfect sense in that context so please don't tell me to get a grip. Quite honestly, I don't care about Vudu labs at all and I would care a great deal about multi-room viewing, so it would feel like a dead end to me from that perspective. I am not the only one to express dissatisfaction if that rumour turned out to be true either. My honest hope is that it is either just not true or that Vudu will reconsider at some point if the rumour does represent their actual intention.

If you have been around this forum for any amount of time you would know how positive I have been about the product. I think that being able to honestly state an opinion here as a hypothetical reaction to a hypothetical situation (my comments were clearly in that context) is very reasonable.

By the way, if the feature couldn't be provided on the original boxes due to hardware limitations I would completely understand and possibly consider upgrading to get the latest and greatest if thats what it took (e.g. I don't expect the original Tivos to have series 3 or HD capabilities). I won't, however, buy 5 new boxes because of a policy decision.

[htheater]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

Also, before the XL, a big deal was made about how the box would keep improving with new software, features and the like. That impression is kind of the opposite of "dead end" which the standard box would feel like if it didn't support the room to room streaming. I have 5 of them and spent close to $2000 on them. Do you really think I should have to buy 5 new boxes and spend $5000 more to get a feature I already have on my TiVo and given the fact that it was my only option to buy at the time?

Get a grip! Nobody is saying that they won't keep improving ALL boxes with software/firmware upgrades. New OS and Vudu Labs are perfect examples that it is not a "dead end" box.

And, speaking of TiVo, how about the great job they did in updating ANYTHING on the original boxes, much less offer any new features. Hmmm, seems to me by your logic that they owe a lot of people upgrades to their latest and greatest unit?

I know that is stupid, but just trying to make a point. It just cracks me up to see TiVo used as a model for any company to follow as Philips managed to screw up yet another market they could have dominated. They managed to lose deals with every major CATV company and DirecTV. Lucky that they were so incompetent with their own designs that TiVo is now going back into there, although with a much less sweet deal than before. It is/was a matter of survival.

[NA9D]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

With the new price schedule announced today (BX100 $149, XL $499), the difference between VUDU and VUDU XL is now $350. Is it worth $350 to "upgrade" to IP control and HD over componenet?

I think it's a much more compelling upgrade than before...

[Nded]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

With the new price schedule announced today (BX100 $149, XL $499), the difference between VUDU and VUDU XL is now $350. Is it worth $350 to "upgrade" to IP control and HD over componenet?

[Rusdude]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

This might be the first time I'm hearing multi-room support as a rumor instead of a wish-list item

Anyway, I think what ticked some people off is keeping HD-over-component limited to XL. I really wish VUDU made it an option (even paid) for BX100.

[redwein]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

Also, before the XL, a big deal was made about how the box would keep improving with new software, features and the like. That impression is kind of the opposite of "dead end" which the standard box would feel like if it didn't support the room to room streaming. I have 5 of them and spent close to $2000 on them. Do you really think I should have to buy 5 new boxes and spend $5000 more to get a feature I already have on my Tivo and given the fact that it was my only option to buy at the time?

[MaxH]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

Why should Vudu (or any manufacturer) not be allowed to differentiate their higher-end products from their lower-end ones? This is business and it happens across all industries and, I don't see anything wrong with that and, in fact, expect it as a dealer.

Well, I don't think anyone is saying they should not be ALLOWED to run their business however they see fit, including into the ground. (Not that I think they're doing that.) But I think that disincentivizing upgrading is a very poor business decision, one that can not only affect new sales, but reduce your reputation among existing customers, who should be your biggest allies and advocates. By differentiating between models in a way that makes it impossible to modularly upgrade or to have certain features on certain models, the customer may want to upgrade but decide not to do so because of the way the options are presented to them.

Sure, there are businesses where packages of options have to be taken or rejected as a whole, but if those options could be added later individually, I think as a rule you'd see higher utilization overall of the options in question. Just because it's done doesn't mean it's being done right.

[NA9D]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

First of all, since the boxes are basically identical except for hard drive, there's no reason why a BX100 couldn't accept a SEP. However, the BX100 has been enhanced multiple ways since its release in Sept 2007. Anyone who's been here that long knows it. Unfortunately, the way Vudu released the XL, it kind of forces them to have features released only for it as there's no hardware differentiation. They should have used a different processor, HMDI 1.3a, etc. for the XL and really made it worth the extra $$$. Now, if the XL dropped to say $600 and was available w/o paying an installer to come integrate it, then I think it makes a lot more sense to spend the extra money to get the extra features.

Now, regarding the Room to Room bit. If Vudu makes that an XL only feature it will be one of the most boneheaded things that they have ever done. This feature request was made by regular users well before the XL came out. On top of that, I know plenty of people who would pay for one XL to be integrated into their home AV system. But I don't know many people who would purchase multiple XLs for multiple integrated systems! I think even the most serious AV buffs probably have just one theatre in their home. So it would seriously limit the feature's usability. I imagine a large number of XL sales come from people who have purchased the BX100 and want the bigger, more integrated box or people buy the XL and then want a second box and buy the BX100.

I could see (but wouldn't like it) something along the lines of the XL being sort of a home hub and being able to stream to any other box. But the BX100s would not be able to stream to each other. That would make sense but still, a feature like room to room streaming should be on all boxes.

A number of people at Vudu came from Tivo. They should look at what Tivo has done with their XL box. First, it's THX certified (I can't believe Vudu's XL is NOT THX certified - I am sure every AV nut with a THX certified system would want this). The Tivo XL has a different remote. The old Series 3 model (before the XL) had faster unit to unit transfer (not sure about the XL). But all Tivos support multi-room viewing.

Anyhow, Vudu will do what Vudu will do. They've been very receptive in the past to user comments and feedback. I hope that is still the case so make your voices known!

[RonV]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

You are correct on the IP control. It was, upon request, avaiable on the basic VUDU box. IP control was targeted to the installation pros to integrate the VUDU into complex home automation / theator systems. This became a VUDU XL feature only at a later date.

I'm pretty sure the SEP only on XL thing is a policy that's in place for features that are specifically targetted towards it and not due to physical hardware limitations. I seem to recall in the early days that they made some IP control features available on the standard box but then made it only available on the XL when that became available. Then, I believe, they grandfathered in the standard boxes that already had it. If someone has a clearer memory about that, feel free to correct me.

[redwein]

Re: Difference between VUDU an VUDU XL

I'm pretty sure the SEP only on XL thing is a policy that's in place for features that are specifically targetted towards it and not due to physical hardware limitations. I seem to recall in the early days that they made some IP control features available on the standard box but then made it only available on the XL when that became available. Then, I believe, they grandfathered in the standard boxes that already had it. If someone has a clearer memory about that, feel free to correct me.