Pandora on VUDU?

[tamanaco]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

I was only pointing out the validity of buying a Vudu just for watching videos. You seemed to be implying that may not make much sense. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

I concur... the Vudu box is the best box around for watching VOD... Any kind of video... SD, HD, HDX and other. If in any of my posts I "implied" that it wasn't... I take it back.

[Citizen Erased]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

The Vudu box for Pandora is more than adequate. A Vudu box reproducing high bitrate (CD quality streams) won't do justice to the sound as well as a Squeezeebox because it lacks the appropriate DAP hardware to deal with the high bitrate stream "natively" and adequately.

Not to knock the Squeezebox, I'm sure it's a fine product (in fact, if I remember correctly it may be using some of my chips), but other than the mixed signal ADCs what part of the digital chain couldn't be handled by the Vudu box? It has a 32-bit Mips core running at 300 MHz on the broadcom chip, it may very well be possible to do the equivalent audio processing in software on the Vudu box.

[RonV]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

The Vudu box for Pandora is more than adequate. A Vudu box reproducing high bitrate (CD quality streams) won't do justice to the sound as well as a Squeezeebox because it lacks the appropriate DAP hardware to deal with the high bitrate stream "natively" and adequately.

I do agree that Pandora is a pretty easy stream to play back on the VUDU. Pandora streams using MP3 encoding at 128 kbps. So from a audiophile point of new this is pretty low on the quality scale. But I don't think any type of filters at this bitrate can bring back the full fidelity of a CD stream.

But where I don't understand is your comment about native high bitrate stream. VUDU is using a Broadcom chip that is capable of processing:

• AAC LC, AAC LC+SBR level 2, AAC+ level2
• Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus
• MPEG I layers 1,2, and 3 (MP3)
• Windows Media Audio (WMA)
• Stereo high-fidelity audio DAC's
• 3D SRS

That is a pretty complete set of DAP in my book. The Broadcom chip has more than enough processing power to work with CD quality streams. None of my CD's would even approach the capacity as specified in the DD+ standards.

[tamanaco]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

But where I don't understand is your comment about native high bitrate stream. VUDU is using a Broadcom chip that is capable of processing:

• AAC LC, AAC LC+SBR level 2, AAC+ level2
• Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus
• MPEG I layers 1,2, and 3 (MP3)
• Windows Media Audio (WMA)
• Stereo high-fidelity audio DAC's
• 3D SRS

That is a pretty complete set of DAP in my book. The Broadcom chip has more than enough processing power to work with CD quality streams. None of my CD's would even approach the capacity as specified in the DD+ standards.

That's not bad at all, but when you compare it to the Squeezebox... a box that is build to proccess sound "only" you can see what I mean.

Fom the published specs:

250 MHz 8-way multithreaded RISC processor
"Pure software" SlimDSP architecture
64Mb high-speed RAM
16Mb program flash
Full 6.0Vpp line-level signals
Two dedicated linear power regulators for DAC and line-out stages
Signal-to-noise ratio: over 100dB
Total harmonic distortion: less than -93.5dB (0.002%)
Dedicated high-precision crystal oscillators (no PLL, no resampling)
Sample rates: 44.1Khz, 48Khz
Audio format: linear PCM, 16 or 24 bits per sample
Intrinsic jitter: less than 50ps (standard deviation)
Supported formats:
Lossless Formats (Apple Lossless, FLAC, WMA Lossless) "Bit-perfect" CD audio streaming, with reduced storage and bandwidth usage. Approximately 2:1 compression ratio. Uncompressed formats (AIFF, WAV, PCM) Supports raw pass-through of uncompressed PCM audio formats
Compressed formats (MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, MP2, MusePack, WMA - MPEG decoding uses MAD software, widely regarded as the most accurate, most compatible MP3 decoder Supports all MP3 data rates and sample rates, including VBR. Sound Check and Replay Gain support for automatic volume control.

As you can see the SqueezeBox was build to reproduce high quality sound and to avoid jitter or any kind of noise distortion. Low-power comsuption -> low-noise design, all solid-state No hard drives no fans in the box becuse even their vibration, mechanical noise and signal noise would inject distortion to sound outputs. Clarity of "sound" not of video were the forces that drove the design of the SB.

[NA9D]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

That's not bad at all, but when you compare it to the Squeezebox... a box that is build to proccess sound "only" you can see what I mean.

Fom the published specs:

250 MHz 8-way multithreaded RISC processor
"Pure software" SlimDSP architecture
64Mb high-speed RAM
16Mb program flash
Full 6.0Vpp line-level signals
Two dedicated linear power regulators for DAC and line-out stages

What do these have anything to do with quality of the reproduced audio? Uh, nothing. You keep talking about the Burr-Brown DACs. Yeah, they are good, but none of this other stuff matters for the "audiophile." If you think they do, then you don't understand engineering and science.

An alternative to your device, the Roku SoundBridge, has a 400 MHz Blackfin processor. It has a 20 bit DAC.

Signal-to-noise ratio: over 100dB
Total harmonic distortion: less than -93.5dB (0.002%)

That's good and important but not all that stellar. The much lower cost Roku Soundbridge has an SNR of > 96 dB with THD of -90 dB typical. At those levels you won't hear the difference. You can't hear 3 or 4 dB at that low a level. The decibel scale is logarithmic. You can't tell the difference.

Dedicated high-precision crystal oscillators (no PLL, no resampling)

So. Just about every device has a high precision XO without a PLL in it. I bet you anything that it's not a fundamental XO but probably a 3rd overtone. I can guarantee you that they aren't running a 400 MHz clock at the fundamental output. No one builds those and if they did the cost would be enormous.

And it's not a big deal to have a "dedicated" crystal oscillator. They are common and easy to come by. I know because I sell them.

Sample rates: 44.1Khz, 48Khz
Audio format: linear PCM, 16 or 24 bits per sample
Intrinsic jitter: less than 50ps (standard deviation)

Hmm.... The Roku supports 8, 11.025, 12.0, 16.0, 24, 32, 44.1 or 48.0 kHz sampling rates. I'll give the 24 bits to the Sueezebox - the Roku supports 8 and 16 bit output.

Supported formats:
Lossless Formats (Apple Lossless, FLAC, WMA Lossless) "Bit-perfect" CD audio streaming, with reduced storage and bandwidth usage. Approximately 2:1 compression ratio. Uncompressed formats (AIFF, WAV, PCM) Supports raw pass-through of uncompressed PCM audio formats
Compressed formats (MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, MP2, MusePack, WMA - MPEG decoding uses MAD software, widely regarded as the most accurate, most compatible MP3 decoder Supports all MP3 data rates and sample rates, including VBR. Sound Check and Replay Gain support for automatic volume control.

Not really. If I remember correctly, the Squeezebox actually supports a fairly limited codec set in hardware. All the conversion for other formats is all done in software via SqueezeCenter (what used to be known as SlimServer).

As you can see the SqueezeBox was build to reproduce high quality sound and to avoid jitter or any kind of noise distortion. Low-power comsuption -> low-noise design, all solid-state

All electronics have been "all solid-state" since the 1970s.


There's nothing special about the idea of converting bits to analog signals, but here's something else to think about....

How does your Squeezebox output the audio to your receiver? Do you use an optical connection? If so, then what does it matter what the DACs are inside the unit? If the unit is taking and converting the incoming bit stream to analog, and then digitizing it again to send it out over optical or PCM, you've got a tremendous potential for loss and distortion in that whole process. I doubt they convert to analog internally and the re-sample it to send it out via optical or PCM. It wouldn't make sense. If everything stays entirely in the digital domain, then WHO CARES what the audio processing capability of the box is on the analog side because you aren't using it! It's going to your receiver where the specs are really important. On top of that, I don't care if you have a -150 dB SNR on the digital media player. If your receiver doesn't have that kinda of SNR, it makes no difference!

I just looked up the specs on the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. It's their $7500 top of the line reference receiver. It's THD spec in direct mode is 0.005. Who cares that the Squeezebox is 0.002? The system will be limited by the THD of the Denon in this case. And once you add any of the audio processing in any of the Denon's the THD goes up to 0.05 at best.

So the fact of the matter is, that it's a relatively easy and simple thing these days to convert bits to analog. I don't care if the Vudu does it or if the Squeezebox or Soundbridge does it. The quality of the conversion to analog is really dependent on the quality of the DACs in the receiver you are using. The only place where the DACs internal to the music player are important is if you are using analog outputs. But still then you are still limited by the analog performance of your receiver.

The chain is only as strong as the weakest link....

[tamanaco]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

What do these have anything to do with quality of the reproduced audio? Uh, nothing. You keep talking about the Burr-Brown DACs. Yeah, they are good, but none of this other stuff matters for the "audiophile." If you think they do, then you don't understand engineering and science.

An alternative to your device, the Roku SoundBridge, has a 400 MHz Blackfin processor. It has a 20 bit DAC.



That's good and important but not all that stellar. The much lower cost Roku Soundbridge has an SNR of > 96 dB with THD of -90 dB typical. At those levels you won't hear the difference. You can't hear 3 or 4 dB at that low a level. The decibel scale is logarithmic. You can't tell the difference.



So. Just about every device has a high precision XO without a PLL in it. I bet you anything that it's not a fundamental XO but probably a 3rd overtone. I can guarantee you that they aren't running a 400 MHz clock at the fundamental output. No one builds those and if they did the cost would be enormous.

And it's not a big deal to have a "dedicated" crystal oscillator. They are common and easy to come by. I know because I sell them.



Hmm.... The Roku supports 8, 11.025, 12.0, 16.0, 24, 32, 44.1 or 48.0 kHz sampling rates. I'll give the 24 bits to the Sueezebox - the Roku supports 8 and 16 bit output.



Not really. If I remember correctly, the Squeezebox actually supports a fairly limited codec set in hardware. All the conversion for other formats is all done in software via SqueezeCenter (what used to be known as SlimServer).



Oh my. All electronics have been "all solid-state" since the 1970s.


There's nothing special about the idea of converting bits to analog signals, but here's something else to think about....

How does your Squeezebox output the audio to your receiver? Do you use an optical connection? If so, then what does it matter what the DACs are inside the unit? If the unit is taking and converting the incoming bit stream to analog, and then digitizing it again to send it out over optical or PCM, you've got a tremendous potential for loss and distortion in that whole process. I doubt they convert to analog internally and the re-sample it to send it out via optical or PCM. It wouldn't make sense. If everything stays entirely in the digital domain, then WHO CARES what the audio processing capability of the box is on the analog side because you aren't using it! It's going to your receiver where the specs are really important. On top of that, I don't care if you have a -150 dB SNR on the digital media player. If your receiver doesn't have that kinda of SNR, it makes no difference!

I just looked up the specs on the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. It's their $7500 top of the line reference receiver. It's THD spec in direct mode is 0.005. Who cares that the Squeezebox is 0.002? The system will be limited by the THD of the Denon in this case. And once you add any of the audio processing in any of the Denon's the THD goes up to 0.05 at best.

So the fact of the matter is, that it's a relatively easy and simple thing these days to convert bits to analog. I don't care if the Vudu does it or if the Squeezebox or Soundbridge does it. The quality of the conversion to analog is really dependent on the quality of the DACs in the receiver you are using. The only place where the DACs internal to the music player are important is if you are using analog outputs. But still then you are still limited by the analog performance of your receiver.

The chain is only as strong as the weakest link....

Got it the Vudu box is a more powerful box than the Squeezebox. Again, hung on the hardware... I'm not going to dispute Mhz vs. Mhz. I'm disputing the sound "quality" of one box over the other. To me the important thing is the end product -> the quality of the audio and the video... Not the process that gets it to my eyes an ears.

"If you think they do, then you don't understand engineering and science." Statements like this makes the argument a little too personal for me... and I will not step down to that level... So you won.

To begin, as I said before, I do not have any specifics on the hardware inside the Vudu box to compare sound components side by side. Decompressing a stream is one thing reproducing clean sound is another. Regarding my engineering skills... I'm 52 years .. and was an engineer for over 30 years... big computer hardware... no... not a sound engineer... If you want to discuss the finer points of Geographically Dispersed Parallel Sysplex using MVS... I'd be happy to sit with you.

[RonV]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

If you want to discuss the finer points of Geographically Dispersed Parallel Sysplex using MVS... I'd be happy to sit with you.

Sounds like my type of conversation. So how do you keep Sysplex timing in sync over geographic locations? We were ESCON fiber based for single locations....

[tamanaco]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

Sounds like my type of conversation. So how do you keep Sysplex timing in sync over geographic locations? We were ESCON fiber based for single locations....

I'm a bit rusty because I've been out of the business for some time now... but if you are using two 9037s in an expanded availability configuration, the TOD clocks in the 9037s are synchronized using the Control Link Oscillator (CLO) Both 9037s are simultaneously transmitting the same time synchronization info to all attached CPCs.

Edit... btw, I don't think discussing the finer details of any of the hardware/software outside the reach of the average user or outside the known parameters of the Vudu box is worth much. Questioning any one's background knowledge using abusive language just because they don't like or disagree with an aspect of the box does not further any good causes. I'm more concerned about features and policies that can be added to the "existing" box or changed to give us better user experience. An open forum such as this one, should be receptive to criticism of the product it is designed to support. If opinions of the box that are not positive are not acepted then this forum does not serve a purpose for which I wish to subscribe.

[JohnA]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

Edit... btw, I don't think discussing the finer details of any of the hardware/software outside the reach of the average user or outside the known parameters of the Vudu box is worth much. Questioning any one's background knowledge using abusive language just because they don't like or disagree with an aspect of the box does not further any good causes. I'm more concerned about features and policies that can be added to the "existing" box or changed to give us better user experience. An open forum such as this one, should be receptive to criticism of the product it is designed to support. If opinions of the box that are not positive are not acepted then this forum does not serve a purpose for which I wish to subscribe.

Tamaco, we agree. Personal attacks and abusive language do not contribute productively to the VUDU community. We welcome feedback about our products, the good and the limitations, in this forum. It is your feedback that helps us develop better solutions.

[raaurora]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

Can you go from one of the Vudu box sound outputs "directly" to your home stereo?...

I can't believe I didn't think of that! I even had an extra cable in the cabinet from when I deep-sixed an old CD player when I got the squeezebox.

I hooked the Vudu audio output to my stereo and played a few previews. Works great...thanks!

[NA9D]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

My apologies for going beyond the bounds of good taste in my post above. Tamanaco, I should not have questioned you like that, I tend to get passionate about what I am writing and lose sight of things some times. I am sorry I offended you.

[skeeterfood]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

To get back on topic...

I too would prefer Slacker, but I'll take what I can get...

It would be cool if the More button brought up a recently played tracks list, so you could go back and thumb up/down and bookmark songs you listened to, but were not within reach of the remote while they were playing.

-John

[NA9D]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

It would be cool if the More button brought up a recently played tracks list, so you could go back and thumb up/down and bookmark songs you listened to, but were not within reach of the remote while they were playing.

-John

Oooh...Good idea.

[RonV]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

It would be cool if the More button brought up a recently played tracks list, so you could go back and thumb up/down and bookmark songs you listened to, but were not within reach of the remote while they were playing.

Maybe they could provide some type of scroll back/formward icon on the display like Pandora does in their flash player on their web site? Maybe to the left and right of the album art? Then you can use the scroll wheel to highlight the left or right arrow and click to move back or forward?

[aaronwt]

Re: Pandora on VUDU?

G

Did you read what I said?.



If you're going to use MP3s with a Squeezebox to listen to MP3s via your stereo then audio quality over your home AV system is not your thing. I use FLAC (CD quality sound) streamed directly to my Squeezebox... I transcode a subset of my FLAC library into MP3s at high bit rate to play in my Cowon D2 portable player. Audio quality and Video quality, specially at home, are important to me. Getting a Squeezebox to play MP3s would be like getting a Vudu box just to play SD Videos.

That is why 95% of my music is in the WMA format

I originally did WMA lossles for home with my Squeezeboxes and 128kbs WMA for portable music.
But now I just use 192kbs WMA for everything. It makes itmuch easier for me while still retaining decent quality.
Plus since I stopped buying CDs, the WMA downloaded music I buy is usually in 192kbs WMA anyway.