New feature request / Wishlist

[redwein]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

For "hour-long" [40-45 minutes] shows, I don't have an issue with the 1.99, but it is a bit much to pay $2 for 20 minutes of content when you could rent a 2-hour movie in the same quality for $1-$4. What I'd like to see is 'half-hour' shows at $.99, hour-long ones at $1.99, and a 'season pass' type of option for a discount on an entire season. The $.99 option is probably unrealistic, but they could at least come down to $1.49--just something that reflects the difference in value.

I agree with you here. It doesn't seem like the value is really there with the half hour shows. What does ATV charge? I hope that Vudu is able to improve this area in the future.

[tamanaco]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

Technically, yes, you would be cannibalizing. Now if you do it as a temporary promotion to gain market share, that may make perfect sense. If, however, you set up a free candy bin permanently outside your store that contains candy similar to what you sell inside, many people will start to just take advantage of the free stuff and never make it into your store. That's what I mean by cannibalizing. Your free offering can directly "eat into" your profits. Adding Hulu permanently would be like having a permanent candy bin. Giving away free movies (as Vudu has done with various promotions) is more like the former.

I get it... we are not watching from the same angle. This is how "I" would play it if were Vudu. Bring the Hulu users in with candy... (Hulu in the Vudu box) This way Hulu users are exposed to Vudu channels with better quality content... If Vudu doesn't have better quality content than Hulu then we should not have been having this conversation in the first place... Hulu content might be free... but Vudu content is better... right? Cable has a similar model. There are the network channels in cable that are free. What is cable selling you? Higher quality content... VOD, VODHD, HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, Premium Package... you name it. Yes, having the "free" networks affects their button line, but they have a captive audience to whom they can sell their pay per view content. The more users that switch to basic cable to view the "free" networks the higher the potential of them buying the higher quality content. For the cable companies (an aggregator) this model has been working for a long time. Some call it free candy some call it... bait and switch.

[redwein]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

I get it... we are not watching from the same angle. This is how "I" would play it if were Vudu. Bring the Hulu users in with candy... (Hulu in the Vudu box) This way Hulu users are exposed to Vudu channels with better quality content... If Vudu doesn't have better quality content than Hulu then we should not have been having this conversation in the first place... Hulu content might be free... but Vudu content is better... right? Cable has a similar model. There are the network channels in cable that are free. What is cable selling you? Higher quality content... VOD, VODHD, HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, Premium Package... you name it. Yes, having the "free" networks affects their button line, but they have a captive audience to whom they can sell their pay per view content. The more users that switch to basic cable to view the "free" networks the higher the potential of them buying the higher quality content. For the cable companies (an aggregator) this model has been working for a long time. Some call it free candy some call it... bait and switch.

To some extent this is true but there is a difference between your cable company example and Vudu. With the cable company, the basic channels don't show the same programs as the premium ones. When you pay for the premium channels, you get more content, not just better versions of the free stuff. It's true that you can pay more for HD versions of the network channels but I know a number of people who are "satisfied" with the SD television, when it is clearly inferior to the HD. With Hulu, you can have the same exact movie and it could have close enough (or possibly identical) picture quality to Vudu's SD, but being paid for by commercials. There are people who would forego the paid Vudu content just because the free version is available. They might not mind commercials, for example. In that case, the monetary benefit is derived from the advertising and Vudu loses a purchase or rental.

[tamanaco]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

To some extent this is true but there is a difference between your cable company example and Vudu. With the cable company, the basic channels don't show the same programs as the premium ones. When you pay for the premium channels, you get more content, not just better versions of the free stuff. It's true that you can pay more for HD versions of the network channels but I know a number of people who are "satisfied" with the SD television, when it is clearly inferior to the HD. With Hulu, you can have the same exact movie and it could have close enough (or possibly identical) picture quality to Vudu's SD, but being paid for by commercials. There are people who would forego the paid Vudu content just because the free version is available. They might not mind commercials, for example. In that case, the monetary benefit is derived from the advertising and Vudu loses a purchase or rental.

We still seeing thing between different trees, but having different opinions is what makes this world fun.

To me once a Hulu user is in the Vudu box... is game over. Even if they only buy one movie a year there is one rental that Vudu would not get otherwise. If they use Hulu from another box there's zero potential for a Vudu sale or rental. To me getting the client in the store is 90% of the game the other 10% is the quality of the goods and the service (salesmanship).

Times are getting tough and Vudu being a young businees might need more venture capital to keep going. One of the first question they'll be asked about their business is going to be... what is the number of users registered for use the Vudu services? The answer to this question will ultimately determine weather they have a viable business or not. If the user base does not grow the business "potential" won't be there and venture capitalist will not fund it. The user base needs to grow either via new registered users that buy a Vudu box (suckers like me) or users acquired via the aggregation of other channels... that also buy a Vudu box (those other wonderful folks) Btw, if a Vudu software client ever becomes a reality there is potential for getting more folks. They'll always be measured by the number-of-users standard. The fact that there'll be folks that watch free Hulu or youtube content using the Vudu box will not be that important. When Vudu has build a solid business that brings stady revenue stream then they can start weeding out some of those free loaders, but until then... grow baby grow.

Is getting late and it's Sunday... time for an IPA, popcorn and a movie.

[redwein]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

To me once a Hulu user is in the Vudu box... is game over. Even if they only buy one movie a year there is one rental that Vudu would not get otherwise. If they use Hulu from another box there's zero potential for a Vudu sale or rental. To me getting the client in the store is 90% of the game the other 10% is the quality of the goods and the service (salesmanship).

This is where the flaw is. In your scenario (someone renting one movie a year), if another person rents or buys 2 less videos because they found it for free on Hulu, then Vudu will end up with a net loss of 1 rental or purchase that they would have otherwise made. Free can be a pretty compelling price point. Vudu simply needs to do some analysis to try to determine how many extra rentals they will get compared to how many they would lose. Of course, that's all I have been saying all along.

As for the size of the user base, of course it is important. But even there, Vudu needs to determine the most effective way to grow it. As I said earlier, there may be better ways to do it than with Hulu. They have run various promotions recently and have been steadily adding increased functionality. Both of those things will lead to the increase in the customer base. Surely you wouldn't want them to not analyze their options and decide how best to do that. Remember, it may be your number 1 desire but could be like the 100th most important thing as far as potential customers are concerned. It wouldn't make any difference to me as a potential customer, though many other things would.

[tamanaco]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

This is where the flaw is. In your scenario (someone renting one movie a year), if another person rents or buys 2 less videos because they found it for free on Hulu, then Vudu will lose a rental or purchase that they would have otherwise made. Free can be a pretty compelling price point. Vudu simply needs to do some analysis to try to determine how many extra rentals they will get compared to how many they would lose. Of course, that's all I have been saying all along.

As for the size of the user base, of course it is important. But even there, Vudu needs to determine the most effective way to grow it. As I said earlier, there may be better ways to do it than with Hulu. They have run various promotions recently and have been steadily adding increased functionality. Both of those things will lead to the increase in the customer base. Surely you wouldn't want them to not analyze their options and decide how best to do that. Remember, it may be your number 1 desire but could be like the 100th most important thing as far as potential customers are concerned. It wouldn't make any difference to me as a potential customer, though many other things would.

Well, we'll disagree here again... Vudu is "not" free.. You gotta buy the box and at least $20 worth of credit. That's $120 right there if you're selling the box at $100. I know the box might cost Vudu more... but not selling at at least $100 might incur an even greater loss. Get those users or lose it.

[redwein]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

Well, we'll disagree here again... Vudu is "not" free.. You gotta buy the box and at least $20 worth of credit. That's $120 right there if you're selling the box at $100. I know the box might cost Vudu more... but not selling at $100 might incur an ever greater loss. Get those users or lose it.

That makes no sense at all. You buy the box. Vudu doesn't make much on the box. They expect to make money on future rentals. The $20 isn't really "spent". It's put into your account. Vudu doesn't get to claim it as revenue or derive any profit from it until you actually purchase or rent movies with it. Again, you are suggesting they add a feature and are absolutely positive that it will yield a net gain of Vudu movie rentals. I have demonstrated in every way I can think of, that it may end up leading to a net reduction instead. I'm not certain that will be the case any more than you can be certain that it will be a benefit. What does one do when they have uncertainty because they have things that offset each other in unknown amounts? They use all the available data and analyze it to make an informed decision. That's all there is to it. Now if you are saying that Vudu shouldn't analyze that, I can't imagine why that would be or that they would just take your word for it (nor mine for that matter).

BTW, I never said that Vudu was "free". I said that existing users may choose "free" versions of things that Vudu would rather sell to them, as that's how they make their money. Clearly that needs to be considered. For the life of me, I honestly can't understand why you are so adamant that a company shouldn't look at all available data and make good business decisions based on all of it. I believe that companies that do that tend to be more successful in the end.

[tamanaco]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

That makes no sense at all. You buy the box. Vudu doesn't make much on the box. They expect to make money on future rentals. The $20 isn't really "spent". It's put into your account. Vudu doesn't get to claim it as revenue or derive any profit from it until you actually purchase or rent movies with it. Again, you are suggesting they add a feature and are absolutely positive that it will yield a net gain of Vudu movie rentals. I have demonstrated in every way I can think of, that it may end up leading to a net reduction instead. I'm not certain that will be the case any more than you can be certain that it will be a benefit. What does one do when they have uncertainty because they have things that offset each other in unknown amounts? They use all the available data and analyze it to make an informed decision. That's all there is to it. Now if you are saying that Vudu shouldn't analyze that, I can't imagine why that would be or that they would just take your word for it (nor mine for that matter).

BTW, I never said that Vudu was "free". I said that existing users may choose "free" versions of things that Vudu would rather sell to them, as that's how they make their money. Clearly that needs to be considered. For the life of me, I honestly can't understand why you are so adamant that a company shouldn't look at all available data and make good business decisions based on all of it. I believe that companies that do that tend to be more successful in the end.

Because there really nothing to analyze... you keep bringing in these complex models that need analyzing when similar models are already existence. I can list you here a thousand companies that during the Internet bubble spent their time analyzing user data and in the end perished. Why?... because they did not execute in time. The market was there and then it disappeared. I'm an orphan of that buble and I learned from those mistakes. Companies forget that timing in new and emerging market is key. First movers usually win or perish fast. And by execute I mean using the experience learned from other past business in a similar space that failed. Right now the content on demand space is wide open. At it is not rocket science... The model... like it or not goes like this... If you're a content provider and you have a significant larger number of users than your competitors... you win... period. A captive audience is the name of the game because in services like cable, POTS, cell the "majority" of users "rarely" switch to other vendors. I can also list here phone companies that failed just by failing to grow their base. They had best technology, the best network... they analysis showed that the best customer was the business customers... and so they targeted it.. because it looked like a more viable option so their analisis said... but.... they lost to the guys that went for bulk without discriminating. To them one more user was one more user. They grew their user base organically and by acquiring other companies that at times were not even a good fit... but in the end brought in more users.

Results will come to those that act quickly and make their business decision based on proven "past" practices from those companies that sold content and survived. Vudu does not need to reinvent the wheel. The wheel is already there... Vudu needs to roll that wheel fast and capitalize.... or become road kill.

Edit: Btw, about the $20 in credit... What do you think are the chances that a user will spend those $20 in Vudu's vault with another content provider?

[redwein]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

Because there really nothing to analyze... you keep bringing in these complex models that need analyzing when similar models are already existence.

If these models exist, it can only be for the purpose of analyzing something. I never said they were complex. Simply that you need to look at the losses of rentals (call that L) and the gain in rentals(call that G) to determine whether there would be net loss or gain. If you know the values of L and G, then you can analyze the result (which would obviously be seeing which is greater). There is nothing complex about that part. However, the fact is that L is some number and G is some number that neither you nor I know. Saying that you do know them, or even saying that you know that G > L is quite simply not true. Imagine if G is 1 and L is 10. It would be a losing proposition. Please do tell me what G and L are in this simple model.

This horse is already beaten. I see that you "know" all the answers and nobody needs to actually verify or analyze anything. I guess that Vudu should run everything by you so they can get quick answers without that nuisance of analysis and planning. They could eliminate that whole cost of the product marketing department whose sole purpose it is to analyze these things and figure out the most effective and efficient way to move forward. I'm obviously kidding and I don't mean to offend you, but that is kind of what you are saying.

Anyway, I don't care one way or another if they ever have Hulu. If you look at the rest of this thread you will see a number of other features that multiple people have asked for that will also, presumably lead to increased sales. I'll let Vudu prioritize that list. I like my chances better with them.

[tamanaco]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

The movies are over and so are the beers...

I don't know or pretend to know all the answers. I also don't think "anyone" does. If all the things that you and I mentioned in our previous posts were not already analyzed by and/or taken into account by Vudu before they went to market... they won't survive. It's too late in the game... they already manufactured hardware and went live with their service offering... The time to analyze the VOD market to capitalize with an offering based on content, for Vudu, has passed. This does not mean that they can not re-adjust their market strategy or change their tactics... it just means that they should already be in the market with their "A" game. They better be executing a well thought out (already analyzed) plan. All this analysis you talk about sounds to me like being in the fifth inning of a baseball game, but the coach wants to train a player that's already on the batter's box waiting for the next pitch. The game is already on the last batter struck out. Now is not time for training is about hitting the ball... driving in those runs. In business that's called "executing the plan" no more analyzing. You appear to think that Vudu has these analytical "A" players that will distill the market and come out with an impeccable plan to corner the VOD market...that my friend is a fallacy. They're at a point where the team has to score the most runs and make good defensive plays or lose the game. The Vudu box went from $299 to $99 during the holidays. If you think that move was "not" an adjustment to built the Vudu user base? I don't know what to say.

I know that Hulu has similar free content that "might" eat away at Vudu's button line and that their model is based on ads. Well, on cable I've seen movies that are simultaneously playing in the paid and free channels. Why do I choose to watch the content on the paid channel?? Because I don't want to be bother with ads and because I like the HD channel better. Of course, if I did not have the paid channel I would have to watch it on the free network. Does the cable company ->"the aggregator"<- get a cut of my money when I watch it on the "free" network?. Yes they do because I'm paying for basic cable service. Would Vudu get revenue if a Vudu users opted to watch the lower quality Hulu free offering? if the Vudu "A" players decided to bring Hulu in to the fold they better be making money off Hulu. There should be no free rides. The channel offering might be free to the Vudu box users, but Vudu better be either collecting money from Hulu in order to reach the Vudu user base or have an agreement with Hulu that's mutually beneficial in some other way. Those are the only reasons to partner with anyone.

A good general is usually not concerned about how many lives will be lost during one battle, but weather or not his strategy will win the war. I hate wars. I don't like Apple products either, but I admire Steve Jobs because he "executes". That does not mean that he does not plan... he just does not get bogged down with analysis. He hits the market with products that are ahead of the competition and he does not look back. When the competition catches up... he changes the game. Him and his team do all of the analysis "before" the Apple products hit the market not "after".

Maybe I'm wrong, but Vudu's offering with HDX is "technologically" ahead of its competition. Currently the Netflix player by Roku has the "Netflix" name recognition. The technology and the name recognition higher grounds are currently taken, but there are not secured. If a new VOD player in the VOD space with a larger user base joints the race... it will displace them both.

Btw, I don't really care much about Hulu or any other VOD content provider for that matter. I just want Vudu to be in the look out for channels that can have a positive impact and increase the Vudu user base. Besides Netflix, and "maybe" joost.com, Sling.com and TheWB.com I don't really see any other channels out there that can enhance Vudu's offering better than Hulu... read this article http://www.wired.com/entertainment/t...?currentPage=3 If a quarter of what's said in this article is true... Hulu will be a force to be reckon with. The one factor that the article does not take into account is that most ISPs are planning to cap the bandwidth of their users as internet streaming content providers become more popular. This might affect Vudu's and Hulu's business model. Like you, I don't want them to add channels that are detrimental to their business model. But if another VOD rental/purchase player moves quickly to acquire the other channels I just mentioned I'd be concerned. As I said in an earlier post... I own a Vudu box now... I want the Vudu "service" to stay in business and improve. If Vudu expands its channel offering they will have a better chance of surviving than if they just sit and wait for the other players to make their moves. Believe me, HDX as a differentiating offering won't be exclusive to Vudu for too long.

[redwein]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

I don't know or pretend to know all the answers. I also don't think "anyone" does. If all the things that you and I mentioned in our previous posts were not already analyzed by and/or taken into account by Vudu before they went to market... they won't survive.

That's just not true. Companies constantly monitor conditions and adapt to how the market unfolds and how their business progresses. They don't run from some sort of script that is cast in stone. Things that seemed like good ideas a year ago may be terribly bad now and vice versa. And if what you say is true that everything is already analyzed, then there should be no need for the petition, which is what you originally requested. Because either they figured it out and it's coming shortly (no need for further petitioning), they figured it out and aren't doing it (it's more complicated than you thought), or they haven't thought about or analyzed it (they "wont survive" and you should return your box immediately)

BTW, your candy store analogy from a few posts ago was more relevant than your general/war analogy. When I demonstrated how that could backfire you just dropped it and moved on to the war one. While there are some similarities between war and business, there are also many differences. Making the statement that a decision like this should be made like a general would make a decision in war just doesn't seem to make sense. Even confining that statement to wars is problematic. I don't think we have to look too far to see how embarking on a "just cause" as the basis for a war, without thinking through the costs (lives and money), and having an effective and comprehensive strategy to achieve it, can lead to all sorts of problems. In war you certainly have to understand how many casualties you will incur and decide whether the end goal for each particular operation is worth it in the grand scheme of the total objectives of the war. Even using this flawed analogy with Vudu/Hulu, supporting Hulu would be an "operation" within the total "war" which would be survival and dominance in the VOD market. There may just be better ways to achieve the objective.

Anyway, this discussion isn't really interesting. Of course Vudu is going to analyze conditions and the market and act accordingly, regardless of your insistence that they don't need to. I suggest we move on to more interesting topics. That's what I plan to do.

[tamanaco]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

Of course Vudu is going to analyze conditions and the market and act accordingly, regardless of your insistence that they don't need to. I suggest we move on to more interesting topics. That's what I plan to do.

Ok... to close. I never said that Vudu did not need to analyze the market or that they could not adjust their business model. What I said was that adding channels or partnering with other content providers to grow their base is key. They need to add content to grow their base soon or perish. Making the decision quickly and stop analyzing is of the essence. Given the current market conditions (Venture capital is drying up quickly and its not easy to come by anymore) and the fact that there are other larger players in the market will soon come to bare.

Mark my words, Vudu either grows its base by adding channels soon to justify Venture Capital to stay independent or a major set-top box manufacturer or large content provider is going to acquire them. We don't know now if Vudu has enough leverage to bring the Hulu channel given that Hulu is growing so fast. Tivo already partnered with Netflix and both are looking to grow their base. Tivo with cable companies and VOD via Netflix/Amazon, Netflix with Roku and Hulu with the Networks and cable content providers. Analysis done... let's see what happens.

[inconspicuous]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

...and still no tl;dr yet?

[inconspicuous]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

It would be nice if, on the confirmation page when renting a movie, it also mentioned whether or not it is available for discounted extended rental.

Similarly, if it's not, I see no reason for it to sit in your 'my rentals' section after the 24-hour window. I don't know if this is how it's setup, but if these movies are sitting on the hard drive (like discounted extended ones do, to make them available instantly), that's even worse.

[redwein]

Re: New feature request / Wishlist

It would be nice if, on the confirmation page when renting a movie, it also mentioned whether or not it is available for discounted extended rental.

Similarly, if it's not, I see no reason for it to sit in your 'my rentals' section after the 24-hour window. I don't know if this is how it's setup, but if these movies are sitting on the hard drive (like discounted extended ones do, to make them available instantly), that's even worse.

I agree with you that there is no reason for it to be in your "my rentals" if you can't get the discount. However, it really doesn't matter if it's on your hard drive, regardless of whether it shows up in your "my rentals" list or not. It shouldn't interfere with your usage of the box in any way as long as it gets booted when you really rent or purchase something and need the space. In fact, Vudu could seed bits of movies to all of the boxes to make the P2P work more efficiently and you wouldn't even know it, nor should you care.